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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 6:25 am
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by Mentat1231

Limitless333 wrote:

I think doing well with Gaia Planet scoring in rounds 4-6 and end game Gaia planet scoring comes down to Transdimensional Planets mostly. Gaia Planets are highly contested in the early rounds, especially by fast expanding factions like the Ambas, Gleens, and to a lesser extent the Xenos. This means that few Gaias are actually on the board by round 4. I think Terrans being considered OP is actually a case of undervaluing other Gaia Project factions and playing them appropriately, especially in the early game. If Terrans open PI+2M and Bal Taks open RL+2M the Terrans are clearly ahead. However, If Bal Taks open A+M the Bal are at least even or maybe even a little ahead on income. Any faction that opens RL+TS+2M or RL+4-5M or A+1-2M should be able to match or exceed the economic development of Terrans. Additionally if GP for 4 points is in rounds 5 or 6, I think many factions should plan on scoring 12 points from this round's scoring probably coupled with GP for 3 point tech tile. The factions that can most easily do this are the Itars and the Bal Taks, but only factions that specifically short on power from outside the game like Xenos are weak for Gaia Projects.


Interesting points. A couple of questions:

1) Are you suggesting that the 3 R1 tech track moves from Bal'Taks' A+M opening are to be used on resource tracks (Economy and/or Knowledge)? You say they are ahead in resources; so I'm assuming that's what you mean. Or do you mean that they fly up the Gaia track, so that they can do a bunch of Gaia projects later?

2) What if a Gleen player gets a Gaiaformer or two, and then that Round Scoring tile comes up, along with the 3/GP tech tile? They would be scoring 9 points per Gaia planet (both from Gaia Projects started the previous round and from any remaining Gaia planets nearby). I feel like that might be strong.

3) Couldn't other races just work on scoring points in totally unrelated ways, and not bother with that particular Round Scoring tile? I mean, sure, if it's a Final Scoring tile, then you're going to want to pick races that can compete; but that tile won't be in most games. What if, instead, the Final Scoring is Satellites and Federation Buildings? Couldn't the Ambas, Ivits, and Xenos just focus on Federations and Tech Track scoring, and let the Terrans have a bunch of Gaia planets? I know those cheap Gaia planets will give the Terrans some building blocks for Federations, but I really don't think that can outstrip the power of those other 3 races to form Federations...

Sorry about all the questions. I'm really curious to hear the perspective of someone who has played it more than I have, and with 4-player groups.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: General:: Re: Gaia Project Overlays

April 25, 2018, 6:27 am
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by Algathrac

Just received my Overlays from Blackfire. They‘re really nice, hold all the pieces in their spots and stop the board from bending.
After assembling i had 8 little thingies too much, the small ones which hold the acrylic overlay and board in place.
One piece was leftover (picture, first row) and i don‘t know what its purpose is. Anyone have a clue?
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Reply: Onirim (second edition):: Strategy:: Re: Why would you discard a door?

April 25, 2018, 6:33 am
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by Joeyeti

Holly185 wrote:

I think you only have the option to take or discard a door when one comes up in the deck and you have a key card in your hand. Playing the three cards will automatically unlock a door. When you have a key card in your hand and you draw a door, I suppose you might want to discard the door if you had other plans for the key (ie, to prophecy, etc.), but I've never discarded. I'll take the doors when I can get them! :)

What he said.
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Reply: Carcassonne:: General:: Re: How to "glue" tiles to a tv tray?

April 25, 2018, 6:40 am
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by forty_eightkb

If I was doing it, I would do the following:
- sand the top of the table
- glue the tiles using white glue (that will be clear when drying)
- varnish the top using Acrylic Aerosol Varnish (I would use Vallejo)

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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 6:47 am
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by Limitless333

1) Are you suggesting that the 3 R1 tech track moves from Bal'Taks' A+M opening are to be used on resource tracks (Economy and/or Knowledge)? You say they are ahead in resources; so I'm assuming that's what you mean. Or do you mean that they fly up the Gaia track, so that they can do a bunch of Gaia projects later?


You want to move up in GP tech first, but you get two tech tiles vs the 0 from the Terran player and the additional QIC income from Gaia Formers which you can use to expand or take another tech tile.

2) What if a Gleen player gets a Gaiaformer or two, and then that Round Scoring tile comes up, along with the 3/GP tech tile? They would be scoring 9 points per Gaia planet (both from Gaia Projects started the previous round and from any remaining Gaia planets nearby). I feel like that might be strong.


Gleens may want Gaia Formers, but I often see them do better when their is little to no competition for Gaia Planets, because they get their points regardless. That said, getting Gaia Formers as Gleens is certainly a decent option. Most economic factions like the Ambas and HH do well with late Gaia Forming also when the game conditions call for it such as R5 or R6 Gaia Planet scoring and end game points for Gaias.

3) Couldn't other races just work on scoring points in totally unrelated ways, and not bother with that particular Round Scoring tile? I mean, sure, if it's a Final Scoring tile, then you're going to want to pick races that can compete; but that tile won't be in most games. What if, instead, the Final Scoring is Satellites and Federation Buildings? Couldn't the Ambas, Ivits, and Xenos just focus on Federations and Tech Track scoring, and let the Terrans have a bunch of Gaia planets? I know those cheap Gaia planets will give the Terrans some building blocks for Federations, but I really don't think that can outstrip the power of those other 3 races to form Federations...


I can't imagine why the Terrans would be OP if the game didn't reward late game Gaia Planets or have end game scoring for Gaia Planets. I think Terrans are still fine in other setups, but I would need to play them more to know. In lower end game scoring conditions such as points for PI/A late I often like choosing factions that benefit from moving up the science track early. In those sort of setups advance techs, points for getting to 3+ of tracks ect tend to outscore PI/A.
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Reply: Carcassonne:: General:: Re: How to "glue" tiles to a tv tray?

April 25, 2018, 6:49 am
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by marrae

Whatever you decide to do - post pics! Great idea! Going to look great!
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 6:57 am
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by frotes

Mentat1231 wrote:

I don't see why the Gleens or Bal'Taks can't be just as good in a setup with final/round/booster scoring for Gaia Planets. And then, I think part of the problem is that people haven't learned to leverage unrelated strengths of other factions. Itars, Nevlas, and several others are meant to be great at winning by Science. Terrans can't keep up with that. Ambas, Ivits, and (especially) Xenos are great at forming Federations.


Gleens are good at getting natural gaia planets. 1 GF is useful for them if the setup allows for it

Bal'Taks use their GF more for QIC and their lack of Nav makes it hard for them to contest many gaia planets. They will get a few transdim and a gaia or two

Itars are very likely to go GF and Nav (unless they do an Acad opening) since they need to move PT into the gaia bowl. They want to move up to lvl 3 Gaia to get 4cost transdim and the 3PT. They also are right next to terran on the color wheel and I feel they are most competitive with them

Finally if the game has any kind of gaia round scoring, endgame planet types, gaia planets, it behooves any race to get a few natural gaias as they are very easy to settle on

Shampoo4you wrote:


The problem is, unless your race is predisposed to go up the Purple track, you just aren't getting as much bang for your buck as the Terrans or other races. So yea, you can contest their transdims, but at the expense of your other science tracks. If there are more than two players, the third and fourth players who aren't involved in the competition for purples are benefiting from not having to keep the transdim race in check.

Ideally, you want a 2nd person to pick a transdim race if someone picks one, but it could always be the case that the only transdim race is picked last and then they can run roughshod over the purples. A non-transdim race can fight the transdim race for the purples, but they cannot do it as easily, they won't get as much out of it, and at great cost to the rest of their engine.


in 4p, if the setup has some good gaia scoring, there definitely should be a 2nd race that can dip into it picked. If the scoring isn't that favorable, it may just be terrans getting transdims but everyone else should be getting natural gaia planets because they are just good/cheap to settle on
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Reply: Gaia Project:: General:: Re: Terrans are OP

April 25, 2018, 6:57 am
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by Thunkd

DocCool wrote:

2) That one step of Gaiaforming isn't all it takes to then get a "free planet" every round. The other steep investment required are extra power tokens (or, if you don't have them, the lost opportunities to charge power and do power actions). Most factions start with six power tokens, and with just one Gaiaformer, you need all of these to start a Gaia project. So most factions will need to invest in at least two extra power tokens, which means some sort of extra investment (ore, power action, round booster), and/or building a PI early in the game.
Don't forget... advancing another space on the gaiaforming track gives you three power discs and starts setting you up if you really want to compete in gaiaforming.

yonek) wrote:

Then i played them once and they felt neither o.p. nor easy to play.
I had a similar experience... but it's entirely possible I misplayed them. It was only my second game and gaiaforming wasn't a style of play I was looking forward to.

Also, other players investing in gaiaformers, even just one step on the track, really puts a damper on the Terrans. If no one else does then the transdim planets become a free uncontested resource for the Terrans which is quite nice. Any other player who denies even one (but probably more) of those to the Terrans becomes a real pain. Especially if the distribution of transdim planets isn't optimal. If multiple people go into gaiaforming, then the potency of Terrans isn't nearly as high.

At least that's how it seems to me. I don't have many plays at this point, so a good bit of what I'm saying is speculation.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 6:58 am
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by Mentat1231

Limitless333 wrote:

1) Are you suggesting that the 3 R1 tech track moves from Bal'Taks' A+M opening are to be used on resource tracks (Economy and/or Knowledge)? You say they are ahead in resources; so I'm assuming that's what you mean. Or do you mean that they fly up the Gaia track, so that they can do a bunch of Gaia projects later?


You want to move up in GP tech first, but you get two tech tiles vs the 0 from the Terran player and the additional QIC income from Gaia Formers which you can use to expand or take another tech tile.

2) What if a Gleen player gets a Gaiaformer or two, and then that Round Scoring tile comes up, along with the 3/GP tech tile? They would be scoring 9 points per Gaia planet (both from Gaia Projects started the previous round and from any remaining Gaia planets nearby). I feel like that might be strong.


Gleens may want Gaia Formers, but I often see them do better when their is little to no competition for Gaia Planets, because they get their points regardless. That said, getting Gaia Formers as Gleens is certainly a decent option. Most economic factions like the Ambas and HH do well with late Gaia Forming also when the game conditions call for it such as R5 or R6 Gaia Planet scoring and end game points for Gaias.

3) Couldn't other races just work on scoring points in totally unrelated ways, and not bother with that particular Round Scoring tile? I mean, sure, if it's a Final Scoring tile, then you're going to want to pick races that can compete; but that tile won't be in most games. What if, instead, the Final Scoring is Satellites and Federation Buildings? Couldn't the Ambas, Ivits, and Xenos just focus on Federations and Tech Track scoring, and let the Terrans have a bunch of Gaia planets? I know those cheap Gaia planets will give the Terrans some building blocks for Federations, but I really don't think that can outstrip the power of those other 3 races to form Federations...


I can't imagine why the Terrans would be OP if the game didn't reward late game Gaia Planets or have end game scoring for Gaia Planets. I think Terrans are still fine in other setups, but I would need to play them more to know. In lower end game scoring conditions such as points for PI/A late I often like choosing factions that benefit from moving up the science track early. In those sort of setups advance techs, points for getting to 3+ of tracks ect tend to outscore PI/A.


Great stuff. Thanks!
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 6:58 am
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by Shampoo4you

frotes wrote:


in 4p, if the setup has some good gaia scoring, there definitely should be a 2nd race that can dip into it picked. If the scoring isn't that favorable, it may just be terrans getting transdims but everyone else should be getting natural gaia planets because they are just good/cheap to settle on


If your aim is just cheap settlements, the terraforming track is a much better option.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 7:03 am
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by DocCool

Mentat1231 wrote:

Doc Cool (to whom I normally defer) says that Terrans will be very strong when there are the following conditions:

- both "colonize a Gaia planet" round scoring are in the game, preferrably in round 3+
- federation scoring in round 6
- "most satellites" final scoring
- "most Gaia planets" final scoring
Well, thanks for quoting my previous thoughts on this, but it has already been challenged just after I wrote it, and I concur to some degree with the critics: in such a super-attractive Gaiaforming setup, the probability to face another Transdim-friendly faction (Bal T'ak) is high, and even Transdim-agnostic factions (which normally have a low incentive to spend their research on Gaiaforming and to forego other options in order to acquire the required extra power tokens) will do some Gaiaforming because the pay-off is so nice.

So in the meantime, I've arrived at the conclusion that Terrans should do best if about two of the factors I've listed are present, and one round scoring for Gaia colonization is probably enough. That lowers the attractivity/payback of Gaiaforming for other factions while still offering some scoring possibilities for the Terrans.
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Thread: Clash of Cultures: Civilizations:: General:: Another "Reprint"

April 25, 2018, 7:03 am
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by binnet

So Ironically I owned two copies of this expansion a couple of years ago but at that point the base game was OOP so I gave up and sold my expansions at a ridicolously low price =(

And now i got my eyes up for this game again so I ended up making my own copy of it. I was browsing for some other stuff on spielmaterial.de and decided to add a set of the plastic figures to the shopping cart.


All the components except the rulebook.


Comparison of original and PNP cards.


Comparison of original and PNP tiles.

Not adding a photo of the minis since they are the same as the original. Forgot to include the rulebook in the photo though which is a full colour copy and feels just like the real thing =) I didn't bother making the extra counters that came with the expansion since I feel the ones in the core game are more than enough.

Took me a couple of hours to put this together but the result came out better than anticipated. Card feel nice but are slightly thinner than the original cards (16% thinner). Sleeving them should make this a non-problem.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 7:03 am
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by frotes

Shampoo4you wrote:

frotes wrote:


in 4p, if the setup has some good gaia scoring, there definitely should be a 2nd race that can dip into it picked. If the scoring isn't that favorable, it may just be terrans getting transdims but everyone else should be getting natural gaia planets because they are just good/cheap to settle on


If your aim is just cheap settlements, the terraforming track is a much better option.


disagree. everyone can get 1-2 qic and nav2 for the nearest 1-2 gaia planets

Terraforming requires several tech bumps up the track (which you aren't using for early Nav expansion or going up Income tracks) which slows down your early development. Then you still need nav to reach enough planets. Terraforming is more of an all in tech track since you want level 3 before you even start using it and the level 5 reward is so good
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Reply: Onirim (second edition):: Strategy:: Re: Why would you discard a door?

April 25, 2018, 7:05 am
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by orangeblood

Holly185 wrote:

I suppose you might want to discard the door if you had other plans for the key (ie, to prophecy, etc.), but I've never discarded. I'll take the doors when I can get them! :)


The more you play the more you'll see times when you should discard doors. There is some discussion in this thread that goes into some detail:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1771585/my-onirim-strat...

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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 7:10 am
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 7:10 am
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by Limitless333

If your aim is just cheap settlements, the terraforming track is a much better option.


disagree. everyone can get 1-2 qic and nav2 for the nearest 1-2 gaia planets

Terraforming requires several tech bumps up the track (which you aren't using for early Nav expansion or going up Income tracks) which slows down your early development. Then you still need nav to reach enough planets. Terraforming is more of an all in tech track since you want level 3 before you even start using it and the level 5 reward is so good


The Terraforming track gives 4 Ore as you move up it. The 4 ore + the tech tile makes the terraforming track relatively cheap resource wise than the Gaia Forming track which just provides 3 power from outside the game. I think both the Gaia Forming track and Terraforming track are both all-in tracks after several plays.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: General:: Re: Terrans are OP

April 25, 2018, 7:10 am
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by DocCool

Thunkd wrote:

DocCool wrote:

2) That one step of Gaiaforming isn't all it takes to then get a "free planet" every round. The other steep investment required are extra power tokens (or, if you don't have them, the lost opportunities to charge power and do power actions). Most factions start with six power tokens, and with just one Gaiaformer, you need all of these to start a Gaia project. So most factions will need to invest in at least two extra power tokens, which means some sort of extra investment (ore, power action, round booster), and/or building a PI early in the game.
Don't forget... advancing another space on the gaiaforming track gives you three power discs and starts setting you up if you really want to compete in gaiaforming.
Damn, I totally forgot about that! :p:whistle:

Not. That's another research step: GF level 2. As I understood Skyswooper, he's arguing in favor of "Gaiaforming light", i.e. to just go for GF level 1 and then collect a "free planet" every round. It's not that easy - you also need the power tokens. And while you're on level 2, why not go the whole way?
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Thread: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Should Gleens Spam the Gaia Track??

April 25, 2018, 7:12 am
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by Mentat1231

This just occurred to me in a different thread (about Terrans being OP, which I'm less and less convinced of). I'd love to hear your thoughts....

I've actually never used a Gaiaformer with Gleens; but, now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if they shouldn't just go crazy on the Gaia track. Or, at least, I wonder if there aren't scenarios where that's the best thing for them to do.

Imagine a setup with both Round Scoring Tiles for GP out there (and, perhaps, Final Scoring for GP). This situation seems Terran-friendly; but, consider the Gleens. Of course, Gleens can spam an early Round Scoring Tile with natural GPs, but what about prepping for a later one by getting a Gaiaformer or two? They get extra points each time, and they could get the 3p/GP tech tile on top of that (and maybe the booster sometimes, if it's out, to say nothing of the Advanced tech tile...). But, regardless of that, if they keep getting natural and Gaiaformed GPs... and then they make it to level 5 of the Gaia track... wouldn't they score just an absolute truckload of points?

Say they earn 6 or 7 GP by using their ability with naturals and also going after the Transdims with Gaiaformers.... That's 10 or 11 points from the level 5 reward (plus 12 for getting to level 5). If they've capitalized on Round Scoring early and late (natural and Transdim), and used the tech tile, they might have earned an average of 7 or 8 points per GP, which puts them at 72 to 78 points. Add in an advanced tech tile or booster, and that easily goes to around 100, and they're a shoe-in for the Final Scoring bonus for GP (plus points from having formed a couple of Federations, and then whatever the other Final Scoring is...).

I'm just spit-balling here. What do you guys think?
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 7:14 am
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by Shampoo4you

frotes wrote:

Shampoo4you wrote:

frotes wrote:


in 4p, if the setup has some good gaia scoring, there definitely should be a 2nd race that can dip into it picked. If the scoring isn't that favorable, it may just be terrans getting transdims but everyone else should be getting natural gaia planets because they are just good/cheap to settle on


If your aim is just cheap settlements, the terraforming track is a much better option.


disagree. everyone can get 1-2 qic and nav2 for the nearest 1-2 gaia planets

Terraforming requires several tech bumps up the track (which you aren't using for early Nav expansion or going up Income tracks) which slows down your early development. Then you still need nav to reach enough planets. Terraforming is more of an all in tech track since you want level 3 before you even start using it and the level 5 reward is so good


What the heck are you talking about? It only takes two moves to decrease Terraforming costs by 1/3, and one additional move to decrease it by 2/3rds. It relies just as much as on the Nav track as the transdim track does. Actually, the transdim track relies on it more because you're likely to run out of nearby purples before running out of other planet types.

Not sure why you even brought up Gaia planets, everyone can settle those for QICs so it doesn't really relate to a conversation between terraforming vs. gaiaforming tracks.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: Terrans overpowerd?

April 25, 2018, 7:17 am
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by frotes

Honestly the issue stems from the basic setup. The map is favorable toward Nav2 and the terrans are straight forward and strong. HH, Talkon take experience to figure out how to score well with them. Xenos expand well but if the round/fs isn't great toward making feds then they lose out

Terrans have no other natural gaia race to compete with. Most new players start with PI which is better for terrans than the other suggested races on R1.

------

In most games, terrans will open PI + 2M & 1GF. They will go up Nav but won't reach Nav2 until round 2. They will use PI income to try and get onto 1-2 natural Gaia planets and GF one a round early on.

Itar can contest transdims/gaias on R1 from terrans. Baltaks can contest transdims that aren't close to terrans. Gleen and any race that goes to Nav2 in R1 or uses some temp boosts can steal close gaia planets to terrans in R1. This severally limits their expansion options since they aren't a tech race and don't usually open RL
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