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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by medievalbanquet

astroglide wrote:

medievalbanquet wrote:

Interesting. I don't think Agricola is about the card interactions. In fact, if it was I would think Uwe would have put in a mechanic (possibly a draft) to insure that this was the case. Instead, he didn't. That is a LOT of information for you as to his thoughts on the importance of cards, etc.

I don't think any form of creation is about deference to designer intent. When one makes something, they get to make it, but once it's out in the world, they don't get to determine what the response to it is or "should" be, nor do I think people should look back to them to do that.

If counter-examples are your thing, basically all forms of "competitive" Agricola, including the officially-sanctioned world championships, feature drafting. And we've had a bajillion card/deck expansions, compared to a single major game expansion (Farmers of the Moor).
If cards were the game like in Terraforming Mars, I don't think you'd be able to win without them.

If your opponents are playing remotely well, you aren't going to win a game of Agricola without card support.

I have my preferences, and I play by them, but I'm cool with whatever. That has nothing to do what Uwe thinks, despite my immense debt of gratitude to him for the game.


Sure but that is not what I am saying. Artist, designer, author, etc. all do things with determination. They do things with purpose but then the public may take it elsewhere.

You agree that designs and mechanics are developed to provide for a very rewarding, balancing experience, correct? That’s the intent. They may have missed something (A Few Acres of Snow- Halifax Hammer) that the General public found. No kidding.

But, I don’t think Uwe chose to offer 7 random occupations/minors to players in an award winning game about tough choices and thin margins so as to make the point that card interactions and variances are the supreme purpose of the game. I imagine card drafting was talked about and suggested or even play tested during the game’s development.

And the answer we got was the rules as written.


Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by medievalbanquet

lucky henry wrote:


Depends on what I want at the time. Want as easier game? Draft. Want a tougher game? Don't draft.



Exactly true. To each his own.

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by astroglide

medievalbanquet wrote:

Interesting. I do think drafting makes the game easier as you have a sidecar of benefits and resources to bolster your decisions in the game, making them easier. If you have a ton of food (ton is a relative term, of course) from drafted cards to feed your family you’ve simply taken a huge concern out of the game that should be dealt with with carefully planned decisions.

This only rates to happen if players are drafting poorly (especially the ones closest to your right).

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by medievalbanquet

evidence wrote:

If you don't draft, you're not a true Agricola player. I want everyone to have an equal chance of winning. I don't want to get a crap hand of cards and lose only because someone got a much better hand dealt to them. Similarly, I get no satisfaction when I win because I had the mack daddy occupations.

I don't mind it in Race for the Galaxy, but Race is a 20min game with 2 people. But when I'm playing a 90min game, I don't want to be screwed by luck. Agricola is not a luck-based game. The better players generally win.

The 10-7 variant is a fine alternative if time is limited.

Edit: the draft also allows card combo creation, which is one of the most satisfying aspects of a tableau building game. Agricola is mean enough, why slog through the mud even deeper with a crap hand? I want to have fun in games. Agricola is anti-fun with a bad set of cards.

2nd edit: why is Blood Rage my favorite game of all time? because of the beautiful draft. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'm a sucker for deck building and drafting. However, drafting takes Agricola from 10 to 11.


See, you’ve made the incorrect assumption, IMO, that the cards are the main thing in this game and if you don’t have good ones, you lose. This is just not true b/c the draft is not in the rules.

In Blood Rage cards are VERY integral to your experience and winning. That is why they have a draft.

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by medievalbanquet

evidence wrote:

murksofus wrote:

evidence wrote:

If you don't draft, you're not a true Agricola player.


Wow. Just, wow.


If you're a competitive player, you would always draft. That's what I mean by a "true Agricola player." Play Agricola without a draft, knock yourself out. There are 200 other games on my shelf that I would rather play than draft-less Agricola.

Agricola is a brutal game with good players. Watching a player wipe the floor with your crap hand isn't fun. Games are supposed to be fun. Agricola, in my opinion, is not fun when you can't build, can't grow or raise anything, and can't upgrade anything when you're struggling to feed your meeples. Then you look over and the player across the table has constructed the Biltmore Estate and is slobbering over his endless supply of turkey legs.


I’m an extremely competitive player. Again, drafting makes the game easier. Higher scores, easier time with resource collection.

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by evidence

medievalbanquet wrote:

evidence wrote:

If you don't draft, you're not a true Agricola player. I want everyone to have an equal chance of winning. I don't want to get a crap hand of cards and lose only because someone got a much better hand dealt to them. Similarly, I get no satisfaction when I win because I had the mack daddy occupations.

I don't mind it in Race for the Galaxy, but Race is a 20min game with 2 people. But when I'm playing a 90min game, I don't want to be screwed by luck. Agricola is not a luck-based game. The better players generally win.

The 10-7 variant is a fine alternative if time is limited.

Edit: the draft also allows card combo creation, which is one of the most satisfying aspects of a tableau building game. Agricola is mean enough, why slog through the mud even deeper with a crap hand? I want to have fun in games. Agricola is anti-fun with a bad set of cards.

2nd edit: why is Blood Rage my favorite game of all time? because of the beautiful draft. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'm a sucker for deck building and drafting. However, drafting takes Agricola from 10 to 11.


See, you’ve made the incorrect assumption, IMO, that the cards are the main thing in this game and if you don’t have good ones, you lose. This is just not true b/c the draft is not in the rules.

In Blood Rage cards are VERY integral to your experience and winning. That is why they have a draft.


Agree to disagree. To me Agricola is the cards. You obviously don't know the play-Agricola statistics. If I have the better cards Andrew, I will beat you every time. Sorry man, the stats don't lie. If I have the right occupations matched with the right minors, you will get trounced.

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by medievalbanquet

astroglide wrote:

medievalbanquet wrote:

Interesting. I do think drafting makes the game easier as you have a sidecar of benefits and resources to bolster your decisions in the game, making them easier. If you have a ton of food (ton is a relative term, of course) from drafted cards to feed your family you’ve simply taken a huge concern out of the game that should be dealt with with carefully planned decisions.

This only rates to happen if players are drafting poorly (especially the ones closest to your right).


Drafting poorly can happen right? That doesn’t make things more competitive.

I.E. Drafting doesn’t solve your issues with the game. It makes the game easier, against the designer’s written intent (which is fine if you have a house rule).

But drafting is just a house rule. Most house rules I’ve seen in my 35 years of gaming have been ones that soften the edges. Which is fine.

More competitive is struggling through a game with tough choices and maybe a card or two that help in your race.

Andrew

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by medievalbanquet

evidence wrote:

medievalbanquet wrote:

evidence wrote:

If you don't draft, you're not a true Agricola player. I want everyone to have an equal chance of winning. I don't want to get a crap hand of cards and lose only because someone got a much better hand dealt to them. Similarly, I get no satisfaction when I win because I had the mack daddy occupations.

I don't mind it in Race for the Galaxy, but Race is a 20min game with 2 people. But when I'm playing a 90min game, I don't want to be screwed by luck. Agricola is not a luck-based game. The better players generally win.

The 10-7 variant is a fine alternative if time is limited.

Edit: the draft also allows card combo creation, which is one of the most satisfying aspects of a tableau building game. Agricola is mean enough, why slog through the mud even deeper with a crap hand? I want to have fun in games. Agricola is anti-fun with a bad set of cards.

2nd edit: why is Blood Rage my favorite game of all time? because of the beautiful draft. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'm a sucker for deck building and drafting. However, drafting takes Agricola from 10 to 11.


See, you’ve made the incorrect assumption, IMO, that the cards are the main thing in this game and if you don’t have good ones, you lose. This is just not true b/c the draft is not in the rules.

In Blood Rage cards are VERY integral to your experience and winning. That is why they have a draft.


Agree to disagree. To me Agricola is the cards. You obviously don't know the play-Agricola statistics. If I have the better cards Andrew, I will beat you every time. Sorry man, the stats don't lie. If I have the right occupations matched with the right minors, you will get trounced.


You all still haven’t addressed the fact that there wasn’t a DRAFT in the rules. Why do you think?

And getting trounced by killer card combos that one got in a draft is far less likely in a game without drafting, like how the game is meant to be.

So, your stats are probably misleading. Do they take into account games with card drafting and ones without?

:devil:

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by evidence

You're missing the point of drafting. Agricola drafting is like a whole separate game for me. I want to draft because I want to construct combos and watch what I built unfold in front of me. Yes, it makes the game easier, but more importantly, it makes the game more fun.

Why does anyone want Agricola to be harder? Agricola is brutal enough, why do you want it harder? That blows my mind.

Tell me how struggling for 90min is fun? If I want to struggle, I will play Robinson Crusoe. Maybe you want the ultimate fight within a farming simulation. I don't.

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by medievalbanquet

evidence wrote:

You're missing the point of drafting. Agricola drafting is like a whole separate game for me. I want to draft because I want to construct combos and watch what I built unfold in front of me. Yes, it makes the game easier, but more importantly, it makes the game more fun.

Why does anyone want Agricola to be harder? Agricola is brutal enough, why do you want it harder? That blows my mind.

Tell me how struggling for 90min is fun? If I want to struggle, I will play Robinson Crusoe. Maybe you want the ultimate fight within a farming simulation. I don't.


House rule. No problem.

AND, I’m not making it harder. I’m playing it as intended. And its not that hard whereby I can’t deal with it. Play Struggle of Empires.

Reply: Gaia Project:: General:: Re: online play

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by Jack Spirio

Lenrok wrote:

Jack Spirio wrote:

Lenrok wrote:

Dienes wrote:

Jack Spirio wrote:

Yeah, but that wouldn’t be that much work

Whenever I read such a statement as a developer, I cringe.


Me too.

@OP: If you now a fast, easy and reliable way to program it please do it and show us :)


If you give me the code for the TM implementation I would look into it


Here:
https://github.com/jsnell/terra-mystica

Have fun :) please report back!


Is there any documentation?

Reply: Pandemic: Rising Tide:: General:: Re: Rules?

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by evidence

You keep stating "it's not in the rules."

Yeah, Uwe set out to make a brutal game about farming. That's wonderful for Uwe and those who want to be tortured for 90-120min, but I don't.

You also keep stating "easier". I choose to use the word FUN.

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by medievalbanquet

evidence wrote:

You keep stating "it's not in the rules."

Yeah, Uwe set out to make a brutal game about farming. That's wonderful for Uwe and those who want to be tortured for 90-120min, but I don't.

You also keep stating "easier". I choose to use the word FUN.



Ok, great. Fun for me is different. No worries!


Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by PaulEvans

Agricola is, for me, definitely best with drafting. Having said that, I usually don't. With less experienced players it takes too long, and further adds to the advantage that experienced players have.

Drafting is fantastic - it does help balance starting hands, and it can really allow you to build a strategy to your execution.

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by evidence

I wrongly used the word "harder". You're right Uwe designed the game without a draft. Thus I switch "harder" to "brutal" when you are dealt a crap set of cards.

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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by evidence

Paul, I agree with you.

When I play with inexperienced players, we skip the draft and switch to the 10-7 variant.

Reply: Gaia Project:: General:: Re: online play

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by Jack Spirio

JamesWolfpacker wrote:

Lenrok wrote:

Jack Spirio wrote:

Lenrok wrote:

Dienes wrote:

Jack Spirio wrote:

Yeah, but that wouldn’t be that much work

Whenever I read such a statement as a developer, I cringe.


Me too.

@OP: If you now a fast, easy and reliable way to program it please do it and show us :)


If you give me the code for the TM implementation I would look into it


Here:
https://github.com/jsnell/terra-mystica

Have fun :) please report back!


:D :laugh:

So Jack... I've been asking for a while now if anyone is interested in hosting a playtest server copy of Snellman's site so that certain stuff could be playtested and component limited. For instance none of the points below can be mixed together into one game:

1. Adding several of the user made factions but only 1 new faction per game.
2. Adding several different types of BONs but only using the 20 current factions and a maximum of 2 new ones per game.
3. Adding several types of round scoring, but only 1 new one per game.
4. Adding several types of Town tiles, but only 1 new one per game (might have 1-3 copies of it) including making the new ones as substitutes so that it makes a new variable to consider in setup. Imagine that perhaps the 2vp +2cults x 4 and 8vp +1cults x4 is not in the game, but 2 new town tile types in place of them, so don't pick a factions that usually likes these. Basically, put the 25 town tiles (for example) in a bag and draw 3 x (number of players+1) so that the 4p game has 15 random town tiles.
5. Adding several types of new final scoring which by definition only has 1 in the game.

Once a component has been determined to be balanced enough with normal components it could be added to the rotation of normal components. This way it will be easier (but obviously not foolproof) to find out if something is too overpowered.


Again the randomization is the easiest part there

Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft

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