by Dark_Knight
Unless otherwise specifically specified, all actions in this game are resolved immediately.Did I actually say "...specifically specified..."?
Did I actually say "...specifically specified..."?
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Reply: Agricola:: Rules:: Re: Family growth on first worker placement, add room with second?
Did I actually say "...specifically specified..."?
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
by astroglide
medievalbanquet wrote:
You all still haven’t addressed the fact that there wasn’t a DRAFT in the rules. Why do you think?
Yes, I have. I do not care about the game rules, I care about the best competitive experience. If the rules provide that, great. If they don't, that's great too. Every major form of competitive Agricola, online and offline, has adopted drafting as the standard form of play, rules be damned. This is not a coincidence, it's because it's widely considered to be a better competitive format.
The fundamental mechanism of drafting isn't to create killer combos, it's to reduce variance while selecting for an additional skill. This is the same reason that in Magic: The Gathering, for example, booster drafting is wildly more popular in competitive formats and events relative to "sealed deck" (non-drafted boosters) *. In sealed, you can roll Yahtzee when you open your packs, or not, and it has an outsized influence on how successful you will be. With drafting, especially among players of similar skill levels, the luck is smoothed out because you can't auto-inherit a fantastic or horrible deck, and the crafting of one is a skill unto itself.
Which isn't to say I like drafting and therefore you should too, or that you dislike drafting and therefore I shouldn't. Preferences are just preferences, and the game fortunately makes space for players of all types. But this side-conversation about Uwe's intent is truly irrelevant either way, and not an objective appeal to preferential truth.
* perhaps also worth noting, drafting doesn't appear anywhere in the MTG rules
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
by Mattias
Drafting is on page 12 of my Agricola rulebook. So is 10-3.I like drafting. It adds fun.
I always play FOTM.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Strategy:: Re: What is your favorite faction?
by Jack Spirio
funny cause in the 2 games I played with the beginner 3 player setup the Taklons always lost.↧
Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
evidence wrote:
Andrew, I love the debate. Thanks for the discussion.
Me too. All good. Nothing is personal.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: Variants:: Re: More competitive board positioning/federations
by Jack Spirio
DocCool wrote:
Jack Spirio wrote:
The funny Part is, that with this Addition you can actively hurt others in some cases, if they do not want more power tokens
It also means odd or strange
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Reply: Majesty: For the Realm:: Rules:: Re: Game End Signal Based on Type 1 Cards Set Aside
by Father Vic
Would it make sense to play 14 cards each in a 2-player game?↧
Reply: Zooloretto:: General:: Re: Will there be a reprint?
by stevepop
I guess Z-Man is the current publisher for the U.S. at least. They list it as "Awaiting reprint." No dates listed.↧
Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
astroglide wrote:
Which isn't to say I like drafting and therefore you should too, or that you dislike drafting and therefore I shouldn't. Preferences are just preferences, and the game fortunately makes space for players of all types. But this side-conversation about Uwe's intent is truly irrelevant either way, and not an objective appeal to preferential truth./q]
I could craft flowery phrases using words that make me appear 'intelligent' or informed in an attempt to dismiss an pivotal point... if drafting cards and card combinations ARE the best way to play and ARE 'the' game then why didn't the designer put that mechanic in.
In fact, I think the rulebook states that the 7 cards you get are what you get and you have to make the best of them. Paraphrased. That sounds like intent on the cards.
You can think you are playing Agricola with a card draft. And that is fine. But, you are playing a variant, house rule of Agricola to serve your own flavor of the game. No problem.
You can say its irrelant but you're not following the thready. I do appreciate the input though.
Andy
I could craft flowery phrases using words that make me appear 'intelligent' or informed in an attempt to dismiss an pivotal point... if drafting cards and card combinations ARE the best way to play and ARE 'the' game then why didn't the designer put that mechanic in.
In fact, I think the rulebook states that the 7 cards you get are what you get and you have to make the best of them. Paraphrased. That sounds like intent on the cards.
You can think you are playing Agricola with a card draft. And that is fine. But, you are playing a variant, house rule of Agricola to serve your own flavor of the game. No problem.
You can say its irrelant but you're not following the thready. I do appreciate the input though.
Andy
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
by BeatU
LudoH wrote:
We also never draft, but generally play deal 10 - keep 7 (if players have some experience). Sometimes I even deal 11 or 12, it still goes faster than drafting and gives, at our level, enough choices.
So why do you say you don't draft then? Because dealing X cards and keeping 7 is a variant of drafting.
People that play without any drafting are probably playing Agricola casually, or just play infrequently, with different people, of different skill level. I get that, you are not so much invested in the game or its outcome. Keep playing it as you wish, in order to keep the gaming time low.
However, Agricola is a game that for some reason, due to its cut-trough spirit, spurs competition. I played some games with a very peaceful girl, that shied away from any kind of competition (she preferred mainly coops because of that).
I introduced her to Agricola, she played sheepishly 1-2 games, after which she developed such a fierce desire to beat me into the ground, to obliterate my farm, to make my hand full of begging cards, that we played once 5 games in a day, just so we would have a clear winner (I was the winner, 3-2, and she was begging me to play another game).
Well, we were of similar skill level, and then it became obvious that in such games good cards trump bad ones. And if you have a hand of mediocre cards, while your opponent has 2-3 great Occupations and 2-3 great Minor Improvements, at similar skill level you will lose. Your opponents will know how to use the good cards and they will take advantage of them.You can still negotiate with other players to block "the guy with crazy combos", but this is another aspect of the game and it is very hard to coordinate (because why should they help you, and not you them, so on and so forth). In 2p games the "good card advantage" is even more prominent.
But let's talk about drafting as an enjoyable part of the game. It ads another level of strategy. You have the cards in front of you, and you have to build a strategy based on them. That is really fun after you really know the game and the cards. Drafting makes the Agricola experience complete.
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
by cdome
Personally I would draft every game if I could. But it's just not feasible when there are newer players in the game or there are time constraints. The 15-30 minutes that it takes are the most interesting part of the game for me. When I draft with my group there are groans all around about which card to draft and so much reading. I'm always reassuring them that they will get that pack back and just choose the best or most comboable card. They think that I have a huge advantage because I study card rankings a bit. Maybe that is slightly unfair, but they are competent enough players to recognize their combos in 7/10 so I don't have much sympathy for them. I will hatedraft a card to prevent them from getting that combo. In 7/10 if I'm stuck with a terrible hand and they have a decent hand then I will lose to them and could never do anything about it. When they want to 7/10 I joke that we could just roll dice instead of set the whole game up...I still can have fun with 7/10 or random7, but it's like eating apple pie with no ice cream
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Reply: Onirim (second edition):: Rules:: Re: Crossroads and Dead Ends expansion: intersections variant clarification
by jondenhouter
Hmm, that's interesting. I didn't know this rule, but if it's true you can't stop a series and start another with the same color, then the app is correct in how it handles the Crossroads cards with the Intersection variant.↧
Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
by astroglide
medievalbanquet wrote:
You can think you are playing Agricola with a card draft. And that is fine. But, you are playing a variant, house rule of Agricola to serve your own flavor of the game. No problem.
You opened the thread by asking if people draft, and why.
When answered, you are "arguing" with them by stating that it is a variant. We know. What is the point of this thread?
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
by Mattias
Here is the draft rule quoted from p12 of the rules:* Draft: Before the game starts, each player receives a hand of 7 Occupation cards as usual, then chooses one and passes the rest to her left-hand neighbor. Each player chooses one of the 6 new cards and passes on the remaining 5. This continues until each player has 7 cards. Repeat this process with the Minor Improvement cards.
Certainly not a "house rule".
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Reply: Gaia Project:: General:: Re: online play
by Lenrok
Jack Spirio wrote:
Lenrok wrote:
Jack Spirio wrote:
Lenrok wrote:
Dienes wrote:
Jack Spirio wrote:
Yeah, but that wouldn’t be that much work
Whenever I read such a statement as a developer, I cringe.
Me too.
@OP: If you now a fast, easy and reliable way to program it please do it and show us :)
If you give me the code for the TM implementation I would look into it
Here:
https://github.com/jsnell/terra-mystica
Have fun :) please report back!
Is there any documentation?
I think you will have to ask Juho Snellman directly:
https://www.snellman.net/
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
by sandswoll
WARNING: Very poor sports analogy incoming.WARNING: No, really. This is my opinion as an average Agicola player.
Ok, you've read this far, you've signed the waiver form.
Here's how I look at it. Are all cards created equal? No, not even close. That right there is enough to make me consider drafting. But, here's the thing, am I playing a scrimmage with people who've played, but just want to socialize? Probably not drafting for that. Am I playing an 82 game season where the outcome is not so obvious for at least some of the players early? Absolutely drafting. I Don't want to be dealt an All Star team, while you get dealt bench players and we have to play out the whole season that way, that won't be fun for either of us. Is a game of Agricola that long? No, but again I warned you it was a bad analogy. Will the best cards win every time? No, but being dealt a cool winning combo is not nearly as thrilling as drafting one. Having on your winning farm Edible Roots is so much more satisfying when you noticed how well it would combo with your Boatswain occupation. Or figuring out a way to use Water Mill with some other card sounds awesome. (I've never played it, so if you have a win with it, let me know!) (I just checked it's stats most recent available stats on play-agricola, out of 540 efgikw cards ranked, it came in 540th. With 3 plays in 554 games it was dealt in and 2 of those 3 times it was played it won)
Being dealt Holiday house, water mill, flail, butcher, etc etc turns into a frustraing game. Its not "fun" to see how well you can do with these cards when you know your point ceiling is so incredibly low.
I've played hundreds of games of Agricola, if I am playing to have fun or if I am playing to see which player is better I draft. (I've NEVER not drafted. 1000+ games, and 100% draft ratio)
Now, that is for "live" games.
Turn based, like on boiteajeux, I'm ok with not drafting and using 10-7 occasionally. Making one pick a day is TWO WEEKS before we can actually start the game, and my attention span is limited. Usually if I'm there, it's just something I can check on my phone and make a move while I'm at work or something.
Ok, I've got to get back to work now, I hope my point got across though. Enjoy the rest of your day!
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
by richcharters
medievalbanquet wrote:
Hi Geeks,
Who drafts starting cards in Agricola and why?
:what::sauron::what:
Who drafts starting cards in Agricola and why?
:what::sauron::what:
1) With new players you should not draft. If you need to read the entire card to figure our how you would use it, then drafting won't be fun or engaging it will be a chore....and it will be very slow.
2) If you play with the same group and/or everyone is very familiar with the game, then drafting is preferred as you will be able to see and develop combos, rather than just relying on luck of the draw.
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Reply: Gaia Project:: General:: Re: Target audience for this game. Too heavy for casuals / Girlfriend?
by beuckelssen
kimohno wrote:
Thank you for your fast response. The thing we love about ROLL ;) for the Galaxy is probably not the dice itself, it's the constant flow, no downtimes, enough strategy and asymmetry to play again and again and the low playtime.
Kingsburg I played before and I liked it, it's a good idea, not too heavy, and the second edition was just released. Thanks.
Kingsburg I played before and I liked it, it's a good idea, not too heavy, and the second edition was just released. Thanks.
I think Rajas of the Ganjes might be an option to explore https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/220877/rajas-ganges
:)
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
astroglide wrote:
medievalbanquet wrote:
You can think you are playing Agricola with a card draft. And that is fine. But, you are playing a variant, house rule of Agricola to serve your own flavor of the game. No problem.
You opened the thread by asking if people draft, and why.
When answered, you are "arguing" with them by stating that it is a variant. We know. What is the point of this thread?
I’m debating with them. They are arguing with me.
:devil:
Am I not allowed to weigh in?
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Reply: Agricola:: General:: Re: To Draft or Not to Draft
richcharters wrote:
medievalbanquet wrote:
Hi Geeks,
Who drafts starting cards in Agricola and why?
:what::sauron::what:
Who drafts starting cards in Agricola and why?
:what::sauron::what:
1) With new players you should not draft. If you need to read the entire card to figure our how you would use it, then drafting won't be fun or engaging it will be a chore....and it will be very slow.
2) If you play with the same group and/or everyone is very familiar with the game, then drafting is preferred as you will be able to see and develop combos, rather than just relying on luck of the draw.
Ok, makes sense.
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